As the stuntman Cliff Booth in Quentin Tarantinos Once Upon a Timein Hollywood, Brad Pitt laid down a performance of vintage Hollywood dudeness. His character is equally at ease being a human security blanket for his B-list-actor boss, played by Leonardo DiCaprio, as he is subduing murderous Manson family members while tripping on acid.

In James Grays Ad Astra, Pitt used the same tools he wielded so deftly in Tarantinos film laconic cool; understated emotion to build an entirely different version of masculinity. In it, hes Roy McBride, an astronaut on an interplanetary mission to find his absentee (in multiple senses of the word) father.

Brad Pitt on getting older: "You become more aware of your shortcomings. You look into starting to break some of that open, which is not always comfortable. "Credit:Micaiah Carter/The New York Times

But McBrides imperturbability is rooted in repression and hurt, nothing like Booths so-it-goes acceptance. The two characters could be connected, says Pitt, who is now 56 years old, in the sense that you have to go through an evolution to get to a place of comfort. You have to go through profound internal hardships.

Theres such stillness and ease to your work in Once Upon a Timein Hollywood and Ad Astra. Those qualities werent always there earlier in your career. Is that because youve gotten better at picking roles?

No, because I dont know what the outcome of the work is going to be. But in the 90s I did become aware that there was this kind of leading-man role that you could plug any of us into and it didnt even matter. We would all have the same result. So as Ive gotten older, Ive become more conscious of thinking, If I am the one to play something, what can I bring thats unique?

What did you bring to Cliff Booth and Roy McBride?

With Cliff its connected to my dad, the way he carries himself. Its also the iconic figures like Butch and Sundance and in Clint Eastwood movies. Then its where I am in my life. I dont care who you are, life is struggle. Its how you perceive those struggles. As Ive gotten older, I take them more as another day in the office, acceptance of what the day throws you. And in Ad Astra, we were looking at this idea of being older, being a dad.

You become more aware of your shortcomings. You look into starting to break some of that open, which is not always comfortable. I said to James Gray, I see this as very still, and I want to see how much truth and honesty can read on camera, can resonate. Its what they say: the camera doesnt lie. Though I dont know if thats true. Ive seen some people lie on camera, and it looks pretty good.

I dont care who you are, life is struggle. Its how you perceive those struggles.

Have you lied on camera?

I must have somewhere. Some days youre drowning on set. You just cant quite get there.

Was there a performance where you never got your head above water?

My first 15 years of them.

Those 15 years include films like 12 Monkeys. You got an Oscar nomination for that one.

I nailed the first half of 12 Monkeys. I got the second half all wrong. That performance bothered me because there was a trap in the writing. Its not the writings fault, but it was something that I couldnt figure out. I knew in the second half of the film I was playing the gimmick of what was real in the first half until the last scene and it bugged the [expletive] out of me.

Looking at the arc of your career, it seems as if a real shift happened somewhere around 2004. You started working more exclusively with higher-calibre directors. And maybe as a result, your acting had this new depth to it. I can see a line from then to now. Sorry, I realise thats an observation and not a question.

But youre absolutely right. Im happy someone could read that. It was really a turn on Troy. I was disappointed in it. When youre trying to figure things out in your career, you get a lot of advice. People are telling you that you should be doing this, and other people are saying you should be doing that. There was this defining film I never got to do, a Coen brothers film called To the White Sea. We had an opportunity to go, and then it was shut down. Then another interesting opportunity arose, and instead I was talked into: No, you need to be doing this other thing. You can get to your art project later. I ended up taking that advice.

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And you made Troy?

No, it wasnt Troy, it was another thing. But that really made me think, Im following my gut from here on out. I had to do Troy because I guess I can say all this now I pulled out of another movie, then had to do something for the studio. So I was put in Troy. It wasnt painful, but I realised the way that movie was being told was not how I wanted it to be. I made my own mistakes in it. What am I trying to say about Troy? I could not get out of the middle of the frame. It was driving me crazy. Id become spoiled working with David Fincher.

Its no slight on [Troy director] Wolfgang Petersen; Das Boot is one of the all-time great films. But somewhere in it, Troy became a commercial kind of thing. Every shot was like, Heres the hero! There was no mystery. So about that time I made a decision that I was only going to invest in quality stories, for lack of a better term. It was a distinct shift that led to the next decade of films.

You didnt get much opportunity to do comedy until fairly deep into your career, and now its a real strength; Cliff is such a sly, funny character. Was developing that side of what you do also part of the effort to get away from the straightforward leading-man stuff?

Well, I was very conscious of that when I did Kalifornia. Its kind of a B film, but it was important for me. I was going against the things I was getting at the time. I got to do character work in it, and theres humour laid in there, too. Ive gotten to do a few comedies. Theyve just been subtle. Im better at behavioural comedy than jokes.

Its interesting that you mention Kalifornia. I see that as a very method-y, flashy performance. It doesnt strike me as pointing toward the kind of work youre doing now.

But it was another big turning point for me. After Thelma & Louise I was offered hitchhiker roles, which is no surprise but you would be surprised at how many hitchhiker roles there were. I was also being offered romantic leads. For me in the 90s, there was this strict imprint of what a leading man was. It felt limiting. So what Im pinpointing with Kalifornia is a moment in which you can tell yourself that the box is bigger than the one youre being defined in.

Brad Pitt, right, with Leonardo DiCaprio in Once Upon a Time ...in Hollywood. Pitt plays stuntman Cliff Booth. Credit:AP

An example of the kind of behavioural comedy you just described is Cliffs LSD scene in Once Upon a Timein Hollywood at least before he starts bashing heads. Actually, wait, Im curious: have you taken LSD?

Who, me?

Yeah, you.

Oh, sure. Oh, sure.

The way you said that suggests more than a passing familiarity.

[Laughs] Im microdosing right now.

Youre holding it together nicely.

By the way, that was brilliant of Quentin. He came up with that a couple of weeks before we started shooting. We already had the script, and then he said, Youre going to be on acid in that scene. I said, Great! It gives you so much room. The clichs of acid trails; its always funny. Everyone gets it. But the scene mightve played the same way without acid: Cliff would find it so damn funny that he was having a normal night and then these bozos show up at his house. He was feeling the opposite of fear. There would have been humour for Cliff regardless. It was just amplified on acid.

A film like Once Upon a Timein Hollywood is so much about how certain kinds of cultural figures and images evoke particular associations and memories. And along those lines, its not some brilliant leap of interpretation to suggest that our and the movies awareness of a Brad Pitt persona affects our feelings about Cliff Booth. As an actor, are you aware of how the audiences idea of you can resonate with a role?

No.

Really? That resonance feels so central to the pleasure of the movie.

The answer is no. I mean, Im aware of when a director is using my persona really well. Fincher in Fight Club was twisting it. In Jesse James, it was pretty blatant. But no, Im not really aware, and Im not sure I should be.

I stopped reading all press about 2004. Not just reviews. I mean any magazine in the doctors office. Because some of it would bounce around like a rat in the skull. It would stay there, and it would inform some of my decisions and choices in work, in life, and I didnt find any of it helpful.

People always say they dont read about themselves. I never believe it.

I dont go out of my way to avoid it; I just dont seek it out. I dont know how many women theyve said Ive been dating the last few years, and none of its true I just flashed on something, but maybe it doesnt mean anything.

What?

When I first started my career, I was in USA Today. I was pretty pleased with myself. Two days after it came out, I go over to a friend-of-a-friends house. In the kitchen I look down and theres a litter box for the cat and theres my piece in USA Today with a cat turd on top of it. That pretty much defines it. This is a different, probably more embarrassing version of the question about your persona: are your looks a tool you can use or subvert to particular actorly effect?

No.

Brad Pitt in Ad Astra where he plays Roy McBride, an astronaut on an mission to find his absentee father. Credit:AP

How could the answer be no? What of all this business about actors and their instrument?

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Yeah, but you dont know how you read. Ive had moments where Ive seen pictures of myself from years ago and gone, That kid looks all right. But I didnt feel that way inside. I spent most of the 90s hiding out and smoking pot. I was too uncomfortable with all the attention. Then I got to a place where I was aware that I was imprisoning myself. Now I go out and live life, and generally people are pretty cool I just flashed on something else: when I was a kid, I loved the Harlem Globetrotters. When they came to my town, it was a big deal. We had seats up in the bleachers, but I sneaked down and sat in the front row, and Meadowlark pulled me out of the crowd. I was the kid for the thing when they threw the bucket of water, you know?

Youre talking about Meadowlark Lemons famous Globetrotters bit where his water bucket is filled with confetti?

Yeah. And I remember how when that happened I felt as if I had been touched by someone great. So what Im getting at is that after I stopped hiding out, once I got back out in the world, I realised that you have that ability to make someone feel good for a moment. Im not trying to say anyone is being brushed with my greatness. Im trying to say that I have the opportunity to brighten someones day. Thats a rare thing.

Edited version of a story first published in the New York Times Magazine. The interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations. The New York Times Company

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Excerpt from:
'I decided to only invest in quality stories': The moment Brad Pitt found his groove - The Sydney Morning Herald